Welcome Instapundit Readers! I am thrilled to be linked by the Blog-father and delighted you stopped by to share in the discussion! Thanks so much.
Dear Readers: I have the pleasure of introducing a new contributor to the Shrine: Barry J. of Temecula. He is, like myself, a historian. Unlike myself, he can totally handle weapons; I met him while he was leading the Spartan Warriors team during the Young Prince’s “Deadliest Warriors” camp. In fact, he was the fight coordinator and demonstrator for the SpikeTV show episode featuring Spartans.
I was thrilled to chat with him for a few moments after camp, as I relish meeting someone who enjoys ancient history. While I remain an avid ancient-Egyptophile, I must admit that the Spartans would totally open a can of whup-a$$ on Pharaoh’s armies. But, during our conversation, we realized that both of us closely follow current events. Barry J. opines regularly on Yahoo Groups Political Talk and the Facebook version of the group.
One of the threads he authored was entitled: What Became of “Real Men”? A hard question asked by a man who knows the honor, valor, integrity and strength shown by men through history. I wanted to share the dialog I had with him on this subject.
To start with, I would like to offer an example of the Spartan opposite. That is, a petulant man-child who scolds one of the most dynamic women in the country because she hurt his feelings: Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer, Obama have intense exchange on tarmac
My Hero and the Man-Child (hat-tip AP Photo/Haraz N. Ghanbari)
Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer came to greet President Barack Obama upon his arrival outside Phoenix Wednesday. What she got was a critique. Of her book. The two leaders could be seen engaged in an intense conversation at the base of Air Force One’s steps. Both could be seen smiling, but speaking at the same time. Asked moments later what the conversation was about, Brewer, a Republican, said: “He was a little disturbed about my book.” Brewer recently published a book, “Scorpions for Breakfast,” something of a memoir of her years growing up and defends her signing of Arizona’s controversial law cracking down on illegal immigrants, which Obama opposes.
After reading this, I can totally understand why Barry J. is concerned about the state of manhood in this country. His thoughts on this matter are below, which are then followed by my more optimistic take (as woman, a fellow historian, and a citizen activist):
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BARRY J.:Cruise Ship Disaster Raises Question: What Became of “Real Men”?
Is chivalry dead?
I am going to just be honest here, and say that I am sickened by men today.
As a man raised by a WWII veteran with a strong sense of chivalry, I am disgusted with what today passes for manhood. So many are mere shadows of men just two generations ago. Our military service members excepted, most men aren’t fit to carry the water of the “Greatest Generation”, my father’s generation; much less the Knights of the Age of Chivalry.
Where are the Gary Coopers of the world?
I was reminded of this by what we saw happen on the Costa Concordia. That men on that sinking cruise ship elbowed women and children aside in their frantic scurry onto the life-rafts, is just the most obvious example of the decline in chivalry, and… Well, just plain manhood! As life boats arrived on shore, aid workers were expecting to see lifeboats filled with women and children coming off first. Instead, they saw lots of burly men and a handful of well dressed wives and gal-pals!
How things have changed in the 100 years since the Titanic catastrophe.
On Titanic, women and children boarded the life rafts first; and the crew strictly enforced that. The captain was the last to leave the ship, and that after all lifeboats had already been launched. As Rich Lowry recently observed, “Capt. Edward Smith told his crew: “Men, you have done your full duty. You can do no more. Now it’s every man for himself.” One witness recalled seeing him, probably washed overboard, clutching a child in the water as the Titanic disappeared. A member of the crew always believed it was Captain Smith’s voice he heard from the water after the Titanic was gone, urging him and others on: “Good boys! Good lads!”
How different that is from the Costa Concordia captain, who along with other young brutes, apparently launched himself and his Moldavian 25 year old girlfriend into one of the lifeboats early on, elbowing women and children aside.
Today the cry of, “women-and-children first”, has become “brutes and their bimbos” first!
Young men just don’t seem to respect women. They don’t seem to respect much of anything. I see it every day in the way men treat their women. Or any woman, or the old, the young, or the infirm. The only thing they hold in esteem seems to be what hangs between their own legs; and what they can do with it.
Men today are a bunch of pierced, tattooed, slovenly louts! Not “men”: they are “manlings”! Boys that never grow beyond their toys.
A beautiful 29 year old acquaintance of mine complains that her husband spends much of his time at work (in his parents Real Estate business) playing online poker. Then comes home and plays X-Box most of the night!
Not a man, a manling.
But women must accept at least some of the blame for modern man’s deplorable lack of character!
Its women, after all, that raise men (often without men in the home). Its mostly young female teachers that teach our boys in their most formative years. And its women who accept and give themselves to “manlings” such behavior and reward it by going out with and marrying such cretins…
Were women to demand that the men in their lives not treat them like slutty sex objects; but instead commit to them and family before mating, than more boys would have male role models in their lives.
Were mothers to raise boys to be gentleman with a sense of honor, they would grow up into men those mothers could be proud of.
Feminist politics, Political Correctness, and (most importantly) lack of male role models has left this generation of men with no clue how to behave as MEN!
When the ship is sinking, and no one is there taking charge, wouldn’t it be nice if men were made of the same stern stuff the men aboard the Titanic were; when women and children really did come first, and men went down with the ship?
That’s my rant…Here is Rich Lowry’s insightful take on it!
The Titanic went down, they say, to the strains of the hymn “Nearer, My God, to Thee,” as the band courageously played on. It lent a final grace note to the tragedy. Today, we don’t do grace notes. We’ve gone from “Women and children, first,” to “Dude, where’s my lifeboat?” As the women of the Costa Concordia can testify, that’s a long way down.
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MUT: Women Still See Heroes
While several points you make are valid, I am much more optimistic than you. I would like to share why.
Firstly: Chivalry is not dead. In the Costa Concordia tragedy, the Hungarian entertainer who died actually saved several children, before going back to try and retrieve his violin(non-musicians may not appreciate how expensive and treasured a specific instrument can be). This man was a hero; the fact the Captain was not should not take away from this fact. Also, the Filipino crewmembers and staff were extremely brave.
I am currently arranging for a presentation for my son’s class from “Chivalry Today“. I can tell you that children still love the examples of the local heroes, and long to hear stories of real valor. I am sure many parents, such as myself, are encouraging these lessons.
Secondly: Gender feminism really sucks.
I agree that gender-equity feminists have really hurt women, our culture, and the quality of life for many in Western society. You can listen to me rant sometime about the coarseness of rap lyrics, the hideousness of current fashion, and the lies spread about women’s reproductive potential in later years — and that represents a small portion of the disdain I hold for gender feminism.
The conversations on this subject I have with my 1st-generation-feminist, bra-burning, spiritualist, beatnik-inspired mother can be absolutely hilarious.
However, I think much of the root cause of our travails is the fact “Big Government” has taken the place of the “Pater Familias“. In Italy (the country of Captain Coward), for example, the restrictions of big government socialist program has lead to grown men being unable to move out of their parents home and start their own family. The government-imposed employment restrictions were probably a major reason this obviously incompetent boob still had his prestigious job.
However, citizens are pushing back. Italy has its own Tea Party movement, and I was privileged to speak at event in Florence. I have good hope this trend will be thwarted.
Plus, some of my current male heroes are working hard to make individual responsibility and smaller government possible in this country! Instapundit has a link to a great interview he did with Tea Party Patriot’s national coordinator, Mark Meckler.
Thirdly: It is the human condition that the oldest generation despairs of the youngest.
I can’t imagine what the grandparents of powedered-wig/tight-pant wearing young men would have thought. However, these
powedered-wig/tight-pant wearing heroes founded our cherished Republic.
I would also like to point out that, like the women of Sparta, American women are also able to open up cans of whup-a$$. For example, as Lipstick Underground notes, about 80% of the local tea party groups were started up by women. There are tons of examples of American female moxie.
In fact, I am ordering the Kindle version of “Scorpions for Breakfast” today.
Resident Obama is a great example of a family man who was raised by a single mother. As a leader, he does not exemplify the key traits of manhood. He is a whinner, unable to take criticism, follishly arrogant, entitled, and has not earned his place or proven his worth. Obama’s first book was written for him, his school acceptance and financing were handled by others, his political grooming is as a figurehead, and his core “street cred” as a lawyer, professor and community organizer is questionable. He is not a leader, an earner or a warrior. Mr. Obama’s despicable bravery in boldly lying his way through life might even be attributed to an arrogant belief that we Americans are ignorant fools who will never see the truth, and not courage against fear of discovery.
I have five sons and two daughters. I have taught my sons to be courteous, honorable and respectful. I have taught my daughters the same, along with an appreciation for men who treat them well.
P.S., I’m single now and I love it when a man is chivalrous – I always go out of my way to thank a man when he does anything for me.
There is hope!
It is wonderful that you’ve taught your sons to be courteous, honorable, and respectful. The problem is that when they leave your house, they enter a world in which the incentives have all been stacked against courteous, honorable, and respectful behavior. If they go with their childhood programming, they’ll go through life the victim of the new, discourteous, dishonorable, and disrespectful gender-feminist majority.
Two of them are married and have babies of their own – and what I”m proudest of in both of them is the husbands and fathers that they have become.
Thanks.
I hope you also taught them that these standards are worth the effort, even when misguided, sometimes smoothly-spoken nitwits of either sex do not appreciate, or even disparage the good they do. Honor is for yourself as much as it is for those you honor by your actions.
Barry J.’s analysis of the Costa Concordia event bespeaks a shallow thinker who has internalized decades of anti-male propaganda promulgated by radical feminism and the herd mentality of the countless millions of women who swallow it.
For instance: More than 99.5 percent of the Costa Concordia occupants safely escaped. How do male “louts” account for that? Barry J. is willing to blame men first without asking questions later.
Is he also aware that dramatically different accounts of the disaster were reported? Female writers focused on women while male writers on the whole event.
Did it ever occur to Barry J. that women who demanded equality then got it deserve no special consideration from total strangers because of gender, yet they complained bitterly when forced to wait their turn?
The women-and-children-first idea lead to hundreds of unnecessary deaths on the titanic because it slowed the evacuation.
Barry J., please explain to this lout while any man should be chivalrous in a society that values women’s lives more than men’s.
How do you know ‘women and children’ idea led to ‘hundreds of unnecessary deaths’? If anything, I would think it’s more efficient if people wait their turn than pushing people out of the way.If you were there, would you insist to all those woman and children to wait. “Not now little girl, it’s MY TURN!” You’re so full of it, you remind me of Gloria Steinem insisting that it’s better to drag a person out of a burning house than carry him because women HAVE TO BE firefighters out of principle!
I do have one peeve. I’m so sick and tired of this fawning over the Greatest Generation. The author does realize they’re the ones who raised the Baby Boomers, the generation that got everything handed to them? I guess the war was so traumatic they neglected to raise the first entitlement generation.
Long scenes of wives saying goodbye to their husbands delayed the launching of many lifeboats. The only policy that makes sense is get as many people into the life boats and launch the, as quickly as possible. Any man that wants to wait can. No one should be preselected to die, espaecially because of their sex.
One claim being made in feminist blogs today is that the women are more valuable because they can have babies. Yet no one states that infertile women, those 40 and over, should go last.
Thanks, Gary, you saved me the trouble of writing all of that! Well done, and sadly true. If the women want equality, that means for both the good and the bad, not selective equality when it suits them, and “chivalry” when it doesn’t. But I fault both genders – the lifeboats should have been packed with kids, and a hanful of adults to take care of them and run the boat.
Ultimately, each man must decide for himself whether honor or comfort will be a deciding factor for him. The costs that feminism, government paternalism and society may require if he decides for honor is irrelevant. He must live with his decisions and know what he is each time he looks in the mirror.
I practice chivalry. It pleases the right kind of people and irks the others, win-win.
My experience has been that if you treat women politely, by opening doors for them, allowing them to go first, etc., they appreciate it and will thank you. Even ardent feminists. Just do the right thing, with no hesitation or irony, and they will accept it. This is on the left coast of the U.S., not exactly a hotbed of traditionalism.
This is a great view from both perspectives. However, I read somewhere (I can’t remember, sorry) that the whole “women and children first” attitude can be traced back to a single shipwreck in the 1850′s where the British Captain ordered the crew and the male passengers to stand their posts while the ship sunk underneath their feet for fear that letting them jump in the sea would result in men capsizing the few lifeboats they had available for the women and children. The Men followed orders and died, allowing their women and children to live.
“Women and children first” became a custom adopted mainly in the UK and countries populated by people who were raised in that kind of culture (mostly western Europeans and, of course the USA was comprised mostly of the same people) There are many cultures around the world that don’t have this matter-of-course respect and appreciation of Women. I won’t try and name any, so as not to offend accidently, but you probably know what I mean. I honestly think so-called Feminists unfairly target western culture out of either ignorance or because they are blinded by the cultural marxism that is called PC these days.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Birkenhead_%281845%29
Thank you! I couldn’t, for the life of me, remember the details. I’ll save that link.
Being chivalrous is a high standard that is self imposed, and thus, easily ignored. It takes strength of character to do the right thing even if no one is looking, and let’s face it, character is not in high demand nowadays. In fact, it has lost all value against ego and the need to be considered a victim.
Why not blame women for the loss of chivalry, since they were so incomprehensibly opposed to even minimal gestures of a gentleman. In fact, it is now to the point that you were probably going to cause less upset if you disregarded normal chivalrous acts. But decency and self pride should always require chivalry even if not appreciated.
The real problem is we are better at self esteem than self respect.
It is not self-imposed. It is a behavior adopted or a burden accepted for the privilege of living in this society. Doing the right thing because it is right grows easier the more often you do it.
Who you are when no-one is looking should be no different than when everyone is looking. If you believe it is right, you act. If you believe it is wrong, you act to stop it.
Act without consideration of reward or praise. It builds self respect and self esteem. Acting solely for reward or favor or fear is not a reflection of who you are.
Gary from New Jersey – unpleasant things, facts. The women and children first didn’t cost any lives – there were not sufficient lifeboats. In fact, since women and children generally weigh less, they were probably able to put more on the life boats. These rules – they were built into us by evolution and culture. We are taking foolish risks by casting them aside.
I think Gary is right. The first few rounds of lifeboats were drastically underfilled (I’ve heard elsewhere – Discovery Channel, maybe?) while later ones were piled high with people. The early ones only had women and children on them.
Here’s a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RMS_Titanic#Lifeboats_launched
I happily slam doors into women’s faces, whistle while walking past blubber whales carrying heavy burdens, sprint to get the last seat before any woman. I love it. The modern female is a nothingness, a vulgar void and collectively a welfare drain of magnificent proportions that deserves no consideration whatsoever. Enjoy equality, girls. When they complain, I only inform them that I’m a feminist.
And how can you feel anything but contempt for the fools that would sacrifice themselves so that what passes for modern womanhood might live? Let the deluded white knights act with what they humorously image is honor. The world is better off without their genes.
Chivalry is dead. Deal with it.
While I don’t generally do that myself, if you act like a completely selfish pig, then return that line, there really is no retort – that is indeed what has been forcibly and painfully taught to men, quite emphatically, for at least 2 decades now.
I am so proud of you.
I do the same thing (slightly different words).
.
We should endeavor to give them exactly what they asked for
Good for you. When you act all gentlemanly women see you as an easy touch, someone to be exploited, and weak. I bet you get a lot more respect from women than atavistic white knight sorts.
Donald Arey III,
That shipwreck (the Birkenstadt) was highlighted in an essay on pjmedia.com by Neoneocon
Thank you! I think that might be where I read it. Now that I think back it was probably from a link on Instapundit, which brought me here as well, lol.
I think you also have to factor in that the societal rewards chivalry bestowed upon men are long gone. Opening a door for a lady may earn you a smile, or it may earn you a haranguing (full disclosure- I advocate opening doors for everyone regardless of gender, though you may not escape a feminist tirade on occasion). As women begin to make more money than men (being better educated) the idea of who picks up a check does (and should) become questionable. But speaking for myself, what really hurts is having been raised in an age of men being portrayed as at best affable dunces under the care and protection of their wife/mother, and at worst potential predators. I would guess Galahad himself might reconsider his calling if the people he swore to protect assumed he was just as likely to sexually assault their children as fight off a dragon. Truly this is the age of the anti-hero.
Chivalry dying? Well, this is what happens when governments decide they can be better fathers, husbands, and providers than anybody else.
MarkJ, reading your post I am tempted to write that when you hear “for the children” or ” fairness” promulgated by the government you should take note because what they intend has nothing to do with children nor fairness.
On a related note, here’s this old story:
A radical feminist holding a large package is struggling to open the door to her apartment building. Noting her difficulty, an older man rushes over and opens the door for her. Incensed at this display of neanderthal chauvinism, the feminist berates the senior citizen: “When I need your help, I’ll ask for it!” After patiently listening to the woman, the old man quietly replies, “Madam, I didn’t open the door because you are a lady. I opened the door because I am a gentleman.”
The Concordia incident has little to do with Chivalry and more to do with northern European culture vs southern. Chivalry has been and will remain a northern European trait and is strongly tied to cultural courage. Yes the Lacedaemonians were once, millenia ago told to come home ‘with their shields or one it.” And Cinncinatus held the bridge. But those days are long gone washed away by the barbarians waves that followed.
Northern european culture binds men to be brave since they more fear appearing to be a coward in the eyes of their fellow men than they do the consequneces to themselves. I don’t think you will find any examples of Italian women roaming the towns and handing out the white feather as happened in England. The Italian army jokes are not recent in origin either.
Horatio held the bridge. Cinncinatus took the awarded dictatorship of Rome until the crises was past and then resigned instead of holding on to it for another 6 monthes as allowed. Both are honorable actions
“The men today (military service members, perhaps, excepted) aren’t fit to carry the water of the “Greatest Generation””
Ahhh, yes. The “Greatest Generation”. Also known as the “Entitlement Generation” or the “Statist Generation” or the “Generation Who Did Such a Bang-Up Job Raising the Baby Boomers”.
“Greatest Generation” my ass.
And, many of today’s women aren’t fit to carry the piss of women of old.
My father liked to tell me it was his ‘Greatest Generation’ that started adoring musicians with women screaming over Frank Sinatra and later others. Always educational to know.
Chivalry isn’t dead; it’s hibernating undisturbed. The issue is two fold: (1) Women no longer reward chivalry, just the opposite in fact, and (2) so very few women warrant chivalrous behavior – even the precious few who reward it.
What’s the point of acting like a Knight, if there are no Ladies?
How much honor can I reasonably be expected to bestow on single moms and used-up-party-girl, Sex-In-The-City wannabes?
FWIW, if you go to a meeting of any Boy Scout Troop, Sea Scout Ship, or Venturing Crew you will find young men who are still learning (with varying degrees of success) how to be real men, who care for those around them.
There is a reason the Boy Scouts of America remains a target of the “modernest” set.
I’m a Scout leader. When a Boy Scout advances in rank, one of the last steps in the process is to have a Scoutmaster’s Conference. This is a one-on-one meeting where the Scoutmaster and the Scout talk about what he did to earn his rank, how things are going on in his life in and out of Scouting, etc., and for the Scoutmaster to make sure that the Scout is in fact ready for the next rank.
I like to ask questions. I ask the Scout to repeat the Scout Oath: “On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my Country.”
O.K. Stop there. What’s your honor?
After he struggles with that: What does “duty” mean? What’s your duty to God? Followed by: What’s your duty to your Country?
Pretty interesting to see them work through those concepts. We make no bones about teaching these concepts as being non-relative ones.
The difference between a woman seeing a man’s actions as those of a chivalrous gentlemen or those of a sexist pig is dependent entirely on what she gets out of it. Modern chivalry is nothing more than another example of men being used and manipulated by what women have become.
Being a white knight is not only no longer appreciated by society at large, it’s become a foolish, self-punishing behavior for men.
And the white knights try to make themselves feel better by trying to shame men into sacrifing themselves for women. It can be to make men marry a used up slut in her 30′s or dying on the deck of a ship so women go first.
I would not compare modern day man to Knight. I am not a trained historian, but I do believe those fellows had a tendency to slaughter others, rape woman from an enemy village and pillage when needed. However, I am sure they opened the door for a fair maiden when the opportunity arose.
Amateur historian, here: It depends on when. Early “knights” behaved as you say. (“Chivalry” is from the French “cheval” – horse: a “chevalier” was anyone who could afford a horse and a sword, and so impose his will, usually to his own profit.)
Earlier Celtic, Norse, Saxon, etc. ideas of being a man did include sacrifice in defense of clan, warband, village, but perhaps not such special courtesies to women in general (although “women and chldren first” is just an application of “protect the village” to specific kinds of dangers; it’s a behavior that protects the village’s future.)
The later ideas of chivalric behavior grew from the “courtly love” rules of Eleanor of Aquitaine developed to keep unruly lads about her court occupied and better behaved around the ladies, while her lord was gone to the Crusades. Out from under the thumb of the ladies, even later-period knights in the field did behave quite rudely, especially to enemies and social inferiors.
To those that say “chivalry is dead” I say: “Try it some time”. Ive met quite a few very lovely women that way. That isn’t the only reason to try it though. Helping random strangers or even just being friendly and saying “thank you” sincerely is it’s own reward most of the time.
One of my favorite stories to tell is when I was so nice and accommodating to a scam artist trying to rip me off for “gas money” that he became so flustered, he had to walk off to the sounds of my laughter. He needed a “couple bucks” for gas, so I told him “here I have a spare gas can, where is your car?”. He claimed it was quite far away and if I only gave him my address, he could reimburse me. “Nonsense! I have no pressing business, I’ll give you a ride. Hop in!” He just stared at me and said, “look, I just need the money”- cue laughter and the walk of shame.
I’ve done that – sadly, that’s the result more often than not (by a fairly wide margin).
This guy had it all….camera on a strap around his neck, ugly tourist shirt, and earnest demeanor. I actually wanted to help him at first, when I offered my gas can, and would have if he had been legit. Southern CA is crawling with bums though, I found out the hard way when I first got stationed there. They always target young military guys because, face it, they are typically idealists who want to help. I think my time there gave me a real hard-nosed attitude towards the downtrodden, unfortunately.
I still like being “chivalrous” whenever I get the opportunity, it makes me feel good. I honestly don’t care all that much if I get scammed once in a while, overall it is worth it for me. Mistakes are excellent teachers, so I try to make as many of those as I can.
The greatest failure of the “Greatest Generation” was their children. The arrogance and entitlement of the subsequent “Loser Generation” is responsible for pretty much all the ills our country is suffering now.
I prefer the term “The Traitorous Generation” for Baby Boomers.
Seems the question is whether chivalry resides in the society or the individual-? For me, I believe that it resides within the individual. Each person should act according to what they believe is the right thing to do and accept the consequences that follow.
Letting society or your group/gang/unit set the standards leads to the Nazi defense of “I was just following orders.” The American military does not recognize that defense. Every member is bound to follow “lawful” orders and refuse “unlawful” ones. That places the burden of responsibility for behavior on each individual.
Chivalry, honor, duty are personal qualities. They reside in the individual. It is easier to behave in a certain manner when those around you are acting similarly. However, when no one around you is acting chivalrous, with honor or according to their duty that does not absolve one from acting.
Most of our views towards chivalry, honor and duty refer to protecting, defending, assisting the weak or assisting in the common good… i.e. opening doors, holding chairs, and showing respect by deed not words alone. When you are the only one saluting the flag as the parade passes. you still salute. When a person needs assistance, then help them. Someone who has fallen, someone trying to manage a door with a large burden, children dashing into traffic, coming to the aid of someone under attack…
When the burden and obligations fall on society or women to reward that diminishes the act. One does what is right without regard for reward.
One decides what kind of society they wish to have and acts accordingly. There are many “what about…” and “What if…” situations that come along. we can only place the burden on each individual…
What can you do-? What did you do-?
Does responsibility for our behavior lie within each of us or with the society at large or the ones who may offer a reward-? Your answer says much about you.
What you fail to mention about chivalry is that almost no women today actually want real chivalry because chivalry was a system where women were the social inferiors of men and men were honor-bound to protect them and behave politely to them. What they want is really the benefits of that male behavior without having to give up their autonomy in marriage, skip out of a “rewarding career” to be a wife first and give that job up to a potential or actual husband or any of the other things that were the female sacrifice in chivalry that enabled that male behavior.
It’s not enough that women stop rewarding men who behave like boors; men also must have security both culturally and legally as heads of household. A man who gets in a confrontation with his wife over something important should have the backing of society and the law in preventing her from just divorcing him because she’s now “dissatisfied” with him. In other words, if you aren’t willing to get rid of no-fault divorce, you aren’t serious about solving this problem because you aren’t willing to make men man up and make women stay with them.
Thread winner.
My parents trained me to be chivalrous and I practice those teachings today, where warranted. Some women will prefer to open their own door, open their own beer, etc., which I allow where natural.
However, some women learn abuse and unfortunately that would include the one who trained me. I can only describe as ‘she’d stand three days in the rain waiting for a man to open her car door’.
A woman needs to be able to think and act for herself. Otherwise, how would she be able to recognize self respect, or that of others.
I don’t recall the film, but a line that has stuck with me is “Honor is the gift a man gives himself.”
That is my feeling about chivalry. I offer it freely. If accepted, very well. If rebuffed, it reflects on the one who rebuffs it, not on me.
This attitude has confused many, offended some and pleased a very few. Still, I value the opinion of the very few more than all the others. My attitude won me the love of my wife, who is the very best person I have ever known. That alone is sufficient pay for a lifetime of labor.
My belief is that, when times turn bad (and they will, eventually), women will wish they could find a chivalrous man by their side. I hope that there are a few of us left when it happens.
Chivalrous behavior by men is predicated on the woman being worthy of that behavior.
Ouch! That pretty well put a stake in it.
Correctamundo. We are told not to cast our pearls before swine, you know.
I learned to treat all women as ladies. Those who are expect it. Those who aren’t appreciate it. It works most of the time. For the guy-it makes life easier. One standard of behavior regardless of color, position, state of dress, etc.
Those who predicate their personal behavior on expectation or anticipation of reward are facile and where their true intentions lie is unknown even unto themselves. A man acts as a man in all situations and at all times. The more one behaves with courtesy and acts to protect or defend the weaker the easier it gets and the more trustworthy he is seen by the community at large.
Men and women are different. Economic parity and workplace fairness does not change the basic nature of men and women. We each contribute to society with talents and gifts unique to ourselves and our gender.
RE: The cruise ship sinking….
It’s an easy calculation for. Would my wife and kids rather see daddy home alive and well, knowing he did what he had to do to get back to them, or would they rather see daddy in a pine box but have the satisfaction of knowing that he waited for others to go first?
I think of my family, the rest is easy.
The question is: how would your family feel if they knew that knew that you were on the beach getting a taxi at 1800 (6 PM) when the evacuation of the women, children, and handicapped in wheel chairs didn’t begin until midnight.
This ship was a few hundred yards off the coast, most able bodied men should be able to deal with that or wait to be picked up. But this coward jumped ship and left people in wheel chairs trapped below when the ship rolled. He could have just run the ship into the harbor and up on a mud bank, but he was off having a late dinner with some woman while the ship was sinking.
What an asinine post.
Why should we assume that the father of 3 whose wife doesn’t work is less valuable than a single gal on a girls’ weekend? Men and women are equal. They can wait their turn…enjoy the world you’ve made, ladies and manginas.
As far as Capt. Smith’s last order on the Titanic, is there any doubt that the coal stokers did better than the smaller, weaker men? This is, effectively, what happened on the Concordia.
Men are rapidly being outlawed by our society. They are less masculine and women are also becoming less feminine. Passionate love gives way to vice and ‘lifestyle choices’ that defy nature. The decline of all the core elements of ‘Western Civilization,’ beginning with Christianity as an organizing principle, is a root cause. Material wealth also plays a key role, as it does in the decay of other societies. Brooks Adams, Oswald Spengler, Ibn Khaldun and other historians have noted the commonality of the cycle of danger making and uniting a people, courage answering danger, triumph rewarding courage, prosperity following in triumph’s wake, vice growing in the shadow cast by prosperity and begetting apathy; the latter poisons the body politic so that it cannot rise to meet danger after a long period of security, leading to destruction and the renewal of the cycle. Like latter-day Romans, we ought not try to bring back what cannot be resurrected, but rather we ought to look forward to the arrival of the new Goths, Saxons and Vikings as being the ones who will come and mend the times and the bloodlines that no longer breed enough heroes to turn the tide. (That’s how Gibbon saw it, too, in his ‘Decline and Fall.’) For my favorite Egyptologist, the symbol of the Phoenix I commend to her meditation.
It’s awesome knowing that my generation – which is developing the Parkinson’s and Alzheimers drugs to help the baby boomers and Greatest Generation – is blown off as lazy malcontents. Keep in mind, we are the bottom of your social security Ponzi scheme too – at least you could say a couple nice things about us.
Goddess, I have to agree with the points made about it being up to us women to reshape men. It’s always been our job and we’ve been slacking off. They will rise as high as we hold the golden apple (ahem).
While the notion of chivalry is comforting from a female perspective, I’d much prefer that men and women treat each other with equal consideration. I’m an older woman, but I have no problem holding a door for a man who walks after me. By the same token, I thank any man (or woman) who holds a door open for me. That’s just good manners.
As for being on a sinking ship, I don’t think any one of us knows how we would react, the fear of imminent death being what it is. I like to think I’d let younger women and children go first because I’ve lived the larger part of my life, but I’m not stupid enough to guarantee that I wouldn’t be a cowardly, selfish jerk. Men can’t be expected to be any different.
If chivalry is dead then it’s the current radical interpretation of the modern feminist agenda that has killed it. It’s really quite simple. If you reward something, you get more of it. If you punish something, you get less. Despise something long enough and it will become despicable. Look around you. Why are fewer men going to college? The school system celebrates and rewards girls over boys at every level. Why are men not marrying? The legal system is sharply biased against men at every level. Popular culture? Turn on your tv. Pick any sitcom at random. Turn off the sound. watch for ten minutes. The stupidest character in the room will be the middle class white American male, who can only be educated by his much wittier wife and children or minority neighbor characters. Do you think that you sons don’t see this? Young men are looking around and they see the deck is stacked against them in every part of our society. And all the girls they see are self-absorbed, money-grubbing little “Lady Gaga” wannabes? They are taking the only logical route left open to them. They’ve realized that you cannot force them to participate. They are opting out. They’ve been told for they’re whole lives that girls all completely equal, that there is no absolutely difference in the sexes and how dare you even think other wise? Okay. Fine. What happened on the Italian cruise ship? Welcome to “Equals-ville” ladies. Congratulations. You are not special anymore. Unintended consequences suck, don’t they? The burly crewmen fighting for positions on the life-rafts should have been wearing t-shirts that said, “This is what a Feminist looks like”.
Personally, I engage in acts of chivalry myself because I am a contrary old man and I find that it p!sses off all of the right people. And the fact that my ancestors would come up out of the ground and get me if I didn’t. but that’s just me.
And the eventual response will be to begin forcing the chivalrous men to sacrifice their lives for meaningless goals, just to keep “proving” there are still a few left. Until one day, there are none left, and we have the perfect pacifist feminist socially-aware society. Or a peaceful graveyard of a once-great civilization.
If you want to understand what happened on this ship, ask yourself what would happen if someone insisted on “whites first” for getting in lifeboats. Clearly, non-whites would revolt against such an injustice, and it could get ugly. More importantly, the fault would lie with the people insisting on the policy, not on the non-whites who refused to sacrifice their lives on the basis of their race. In this case, women appeared to insist on men sacrificing their lives on the basis of their sex. (remember that your current knowledge is retrospective) This is blatant sexism with mortal stakes. This is likely the cause of the elbowing and such. People were probably attempting to block the path of men.
Women are supposed to be equals in every way. That means they get to drown and die like a man. Let them suffer the travails of men for a generation or so, and perhaps they will learn the value of their discarded femininity. Chivalry towards the undeserving, like the unfaithful whore Guinevere, is just idiocy.
Whatever happened to Real Men? You mean the male chauvinist pigs? We learned the arrogance of our ways. Open a door for some old lady loaded down with groceries trying to get in out of the rain? Are you crazy? I would never be so arrogant, patronizing and condescending. I’m a modern man responding to modern women.
It’s pretty silly to propose that the decline of society was the result of an expansion of the state, while apparently being ignorant that much of the expansion of the state has been due to women’s suffrage. Certainly, socialism and the disestabilishment of the division of labour and mutual respect between men and women are both factors- however, the second feeds into the first more than the first feeds into the second.
“Rich Lowry’s inciteful take on it”
I assume from the context you meant “insightful take”.
Yeah, that. Fixed, and thanks.
The code of real chivalry is internal and unrelated to outside circumstances. I do these things because I have an internal compass that tells me they are the right things to do. How the other person reacts to the act is not my concern, it is only important that the act is done. I have also learned one thing in my life that I often reflect on… Only the truly strong can be gentle..
[...] Glenn’s link I was reminded of an unfortunate tendency: It is the human condition that the oldest generation [...]
This entire post was pure vacuous bile. Chivalry is retarded.
American (all Western) women are self-absorbed skanks drunk on their overpriced liberal arts majors, spewing feminist tripe and demanding more more more more more more more more because that’s all they were told in school. They are the most pampered and overprivileged group of humans in history, and they are expert at nothing but complaining. I’ve traveled the world. How many foreign men do you think would jump at the chance to marry an American woman? Seriously?!
“We are noble only for so long as others of noble character seek our aid.” – King Arthur (from a Welch take about him – title unknown)
Chivalrous behavior does not mean treating the undeserving with more grace than they deserve. Chivalric kindness and grace were meant for equals, and nobility is more a matter of character than of birth in our society.
Another lost aspect of chivalry is the willingness to stop antisocial behavior. For example, like many antebellum Southerners, Congressman ‘Bully’ Brooks, who caned Sen. Charles Sumner on the floor of the Senate over a vitriolic speech the latter made to which Brooks took personal offense because of a perceived familial insult, was drenched in notions of chivalry, many derived from the novels of Sir Walter Scott and similar literary sources. Brooks meditated two days on whether the situation required of him the use of a club, a stick or a cane, as the instrument of justice was dictated by the social standing of the miscreant. That side of chivalry – the asserted right to dispense justice – is one that I miss, at least when it manifests itself in the form of correcting rude behavior in public. When I was growing up in the 1960s, any adult could freely correct a misbehaving child in public (parents absent) and expect to be listened to. If one did that today, it would lead to an arrest. Even correction offered to rude adults – cell phone users, for example – is dangerous.
Our society has moved away from the clannish protection. We have become a society of individuals. Defense may only be made “proportionate” to the attack. Mere insult will not be a defense against your physical retaliation. In self-defense you may only use a gun when you act in the face of deadly confrontation. The offender must be threatening the life or bodily harm to you or a weaker person (i.e. child, elderly).
Societal norms allow many offensive public behaviors that would have brought swift discipline in past years. The application of immediate corrective action is probably better than allowing such to grow and become a problem for police, courts and victims in the future. However, we do not live in that type of society.
We should be honorable in all cases, even in the privacy of our rooms. We act because it is within us to act. We act because we believe it to be the right action, at that time, at that place and with that information. Our enemies often use this against us. Many of our military have been hurt going to the aid of a fellow warrior. Women and children are often used as
human shields and targets of attack. Our enemy knows that the American code does not allow us to turn away and act with callous disregard.
Iraq was the first and only time in military history when a conquering army faced an insurgent force that targeted its own citizens. Iraq was a lesson that we face an enemy who places less value on life, property and human dignity than we and who will use our own morality against us.
The insurgents in Germany following WWII continued to act against the US forces for many years. They did not attack their own citizens…
American forces and many citizens know, because we have seen, that there are many things that humans do to one another that are worse than death. There are also many good, noble and honorable reasons to respond with deadly force in the face that one may lose their own life.
Choose wisely
[...] Link: Temple of Mut. [...]
[...] Link: Temple of Mut. [...]
[...] excerpt FROM: http://templeofmut.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/what-became-of-real-men/ Sponsor- Bible Island at BibleIslands.com is your home for Kids Bible Stories told through the [...]